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  1. #11
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home iflyems's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Has anyone contacted an attorney to legally challenge this ban??
    they can't ban just pwc 2-stokes, while allowing boats-that discriminatory, and beyond the scope and intent of the law. the major polluters are not the pwc's-it's the boats.

    sounds to me like any half way decent attorney could get this ban over-turned. don't let them take away your rights!!!
    I think it's total B.S., if you ask me.
    you all are more than welcome to come down to lake havasu and smoke this place up all you want
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  2. #12
    I dream skis
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    I'm sorry, I appear to be wrong. My understanding was that there was a further emissions requirement post-2006 (like the one that is killing standups after this year) that was being referenced by the NPS restrictions.

    That's not the case- direct injection 2 stroke is allowed.

    I would still not recommend installing a conventional fuel injection system as that does not meet the requirements stated in the law. I'd be interested in the feasibility of putting together a DI system. As I see it, the electronics would not be the problem, but the physical requirements (will a conventional 2 stroke head work for tapping a fuel injector fitting?).
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  3. #13
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home fastgas's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    so they'll have no real way to stop if you 4wd your ski in.....

  4. #14
    I dream skis
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by fastgas View Post
    so they'll have no real way to stop if you 4wd your ski in.....
    ...except stopping you and fining you on the water.

    ...or banning you from launching anywhere but the designated inspection ramps.

    Please don't do this. Colorado banned any launching anywhere but boat ramps for zebra mussel inspection (you can't even inspect and then launch where you want) because too many people were not getting inspected before launching off of the few beaches that allowed it.

    They are serious enough about this that they ticketed me for pulling a stricken sunk ski out of the water from the beach in a storm in 3' chop because the marina was into the wind on the other side of the lake (and it was my couch and my other ski at the lake was my stand up).

    Agreed, these rules are BS. But fight to change the rules. Not following them will just give more ammunition to the folks whose end goal is to ban PWC's from every lake in the US.
    Last edited by newsance; 08-18-2011 at 08:18 PM.
    1992 750SX with mods
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  5. #15
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home Smokin'FX-1's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Living here in Vegas, we have had some riders talk to NDOW and such many times. What you say we have heard...but depending on who you talk to and the day of the week you may get another answer. In fact most of them are extremely confused about the subject.

    I still stand by my original opinion that until the date we won't know exactly what's going on.

    And considering that the lake jumped the year passes to $40 from $20, and it's now $16 for just a three day pass (was $7 i think for a 5 day prior) it shows they are hurting for money. Kicking off most pwcs will hurt them even more. If we fight this as discrimination and get fishing boats included they will have to overturn the ban or hurt themselves even worse financially. We are already running on a very limited Ranger force. If it's not a weekend and not near boulder beach you probably only see a Ranger once all summer. Last summer I saw them at least once a ride day.

    I think there is a lot of info that may change before the ban.

    Edit: And iflyems, me and the wife have said all along if they ban us from Mead it just gives us the motivation we really need to go ride Havasu and Laughlin. So if it happens we'll gladly come give our gas and food money to people that want us there.
    Last edited by Smokin'FX-1; 08-19-2011 at 04:04 PM.
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  6. #16
    PWCToday Newbie spazstic's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin'FX-1 View Post
    Living here in Vegas, we have had some riders talk to NDOW and such many times. What you say we have heard...but depending on who you talk to and the day of the week you may get another answer. In fact most of them are extremely confused about the subject.

    I still stand by my original opinion that until the date we won't know exactly what's going on.

    And considering that the lake jumped the year passes to $40 from $20, and it's now $16 for just a three day pass (was $7 i think for a 5 day prior) it shows they are hurting for money. Kicking off most pwcs will hurt them even more. If we fight this as discrimination and get fishing boats included they will have to overturn the ban or hurt themselves even worse financially. We are already running on a very limited Ranger force. If it's not a weekend and not near boulder beach you probably only see a Ranger once all summer. Last summer I saw them at least once a ride day.

    I think there is a lot of info that may change before the ban.

    Edit: And iflyems, me and the wife have said all along if they ban us from Mead it just gives us the motivation we really need to go ride Havasu and Laughlin. So if it happens we'll gladly come give our gas and food money to people that want us there.
    Well, the info I got is from the deputy chief, who is in charge of enforcing the ban - not just a ranger. I got several different stories when talking to rangers - some of them said they wouldn't enforce it, that there would be no way to enforce it, that they don't have the manpower, while others have said it would be rigorously enforced. But coming from the deputy chief, I would believe what he says to be fact.

    Havasu would be the next best place, but Laughlin... I'll pass. The only place you could ski would be below Davis Dam, on the river - and that water has a hard current and is COLD. It's not a fun place to ride (Lake Mohave is part of Lake Mead and is also part of the ban).

    We could fight it as discrimination - but that takes time and money - both of which could be spent jet skiing in Havasu...

    What I'm afraid of is an eventual ban across all of the Colorado River, and eventually almost every lake in the nation. Maybe we should get a group together to fight this, and take donations to help pay legal fees. I'm not convinced this will happen for a long, long time, but still...

  7. #17
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home iflyems's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    It just seems to me that this "ban on 2-strokes", is based on flawed science in the first place.
    You look up in the sky near the dam-see those tour helicopters?? They're burning Jet-A fuel. Wanna know something? I bet they put out more "carbon emissions", and drop more pollution in the lake, from above, than a jet-ski or 2-stroke boat.
    How bout all those jets on final approach to McCarron?? Wonder how much pollution they produce?? And, if the wind is out of the North, where to you think all those jet fumes and ash go?? Lake Mead!!!!

    This 2-stroke ban, is like trying to kill an Ant, with a sledgehammer. Sure, it will work....but, what about all the other "ants"?? They are banning a "technology", that "they" believe is responsible for, or causes, pollution in Lake Mead. Prove it!!!! They can't......

    But, the problem is, this "group" that is being banned, is so small, it has no "muscle". I think the first person that gets cited, should contest the citation, and, due to the costs involved in the litigation, request that the court appoint you an attorney. That you feel that the citation is a violation of your rights, and that the Ban is based on flawed science. I would also tell the judge you would like to make this action a class action-as it relates to the entire ban-and that you believe it's un-constitutional, and without scientific merit.

    Where are the studies that show that 2-strokes pollute Lake Mead-anymore than the tour helicopters, or the big jets flying over head?? How long was that study??(remember-jet ski's weren't' widely available until around 1976).
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  8. #18
    PWCToday Guru wolfeman28's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Isn't this what we pay the AWA for? To lobby for PWC rights? Or are they pretty much nonexistent these days?
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  9. #19
    PWCToday Newbie spazstic's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by iflyems View Post
    It just seems to me that this "ban on 2-strokes", is based on flawed science in the first place.
    You look up in the sky near the dam-see those tour helicopters?? They're burning Jet-A fuel. Wanna know something? I bet they put out more "carbon emissions", and drop more pollution in the lake, from above, than a jet-ski or 2-stroke boat.
    How bout all those jets on final approach to McCarron?? Wonder how much pollution they produce?? And, if the wind is out of the North, where to you think all those jet fumes and ash go?? Lake Mead!!!!

    This 2-stroke ban, is like trying to kill an Ant, with a sledgehammer. Sure, it will work....but, what about all the other "ants"?? They are banning a "technology", that "they" believe is responsible for, or causes, pollution in Lake Mead. Prove it!!!! They can't......

    But, the problem is, this "group" that is being banned, is so small, it has no "muscle". I think the first person that gets cited, should contest the citation, and, due to the costs involved in the litigation, request that the court appoint you an attorney. That you feel that the citation is a violation of your rights, and that the Ban is based on flawed science. I would also tell the judge you would like to make this action a class action-as it relates to the entire ban-and that you believe it's un-constitutional, and without scientific merit.

    Where are the studies that show that 2-strokes pollute Lake Mead-anymore than the tour helicopters, or the big jets flying over head?? How long was that study??(remember-jet ski's weren't' widely available until around 1976).
    What's funny is that Blue Water didn't have to prove any harm to the lake, but the Lake Mead NRA had to prove that the PWCs didn't pollute.

    "In March 2000, as a result of a lawsuit brought forth by an anti-boating group, the National Park Service (NPS) issued a rule prohibiting personal watercraft (PWC) use throughout the entire national parks system. All other types of motorized boating remain allowed; only PWC were banned. The PWC industry believes this rule was flawed from the start, since it was not supported by any environmental assessment or environmental impact statement, nor did it include an economic impact analysis... To date, 15 of the 21 national parks units have completed a site-specific environmental assessment and every one of them has concluded that PWC present no unique impact on the environment and therefore should not be banned on waters that allow other types of motorized boating."

    http://www.pwia.org/relations/federallands.aspx

    It's just a bunch of hippies who honestly don't know any better. They claim that PWCs should be running on 4-strokes, without realizing all the inherent problems with operating 4-strokes in a PWC. It may be ok for 13' couches that are a sundeck away from being a full-fledged boat, but it doesn't work for standups.

  10. #20
    PWCToday Newbie spazstic's Avatar
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    Re: Lots of New Information on the Lake Mead 2-Stroke Ban

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfeman28 View Post
    Isn't this what we pay the AWA for? To lobby for PWC rights? Or are they pretty much nonexistent these days?
    Good point. I wonder what they've done so far to combat this.

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