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  1. #21
    PWCToday Regular
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    The proposed EPA rule making - formally described as Notice of Proposed Rule Making will basically adopt the California marine engine rule.

    In a very literal sense, there is no "ban" on two strokes being proposed, just that ANY engine produced will have a max. emission of something like 40 grams/Kw hour of NOx and HC combined.

    A new and well tuned, carburetted 2 stroke has about 230 grams of NOx and HC per Kw-hour.

    The rule applies to the manufacture of marine engines, not the use. The rule may go into effect as soon as the 2009 model year, which could mean just one more year for new 2 stroke powered PWC or 2 stroke O/B motors.

    However in the last management plan for Lake Mead Nat. Rec. Area, there was a provision to prohibit use of carburetted 2 strokes after 1/1/2012. There may be one or two other National Parks that institute the same rule, the NPS folks tend to copycat any restrictions possible from other National Parks.

    And THREERIVERSJS440 - go get 'em. If you don't stand up for your rights, someone with an anti recreation agenda will snatch them away from you in the back rooms of congress, faster than you can say global warming.
    Of course Lake Mead might be dried up by 2012, who knows.

  2. #22
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home tshank123's Avatar
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    "Of course Lake Mead might be dried up by 2012, who knows."

    ...because of global warming, because of 2-strokes!!!
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  3. #23
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    Yeah, I forgot to connect the dots didn't I. Or is it because of West Nile Virus brought about by El Nino? I have trouble keeping it all straight.

  4. #24
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    ...would result in only a small number of PWC users who would be displaced when the restrictions go into effect...
    I just LOVE how they rationalize their preferred position. They carefully explain how a "very small number" of PWC owners will be affected. Hey, if what they're saying is true, then that's only a "very small number" of PWC's generating the pollution by their target date! And their claim is that the number would be automatically diminishing every year! So, if their "facts" are true, how about we just leave things alone instead of discriminating against a minority of PWC owners?

  5. #25
    Top Dog dcmomentum's Avatar
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by tshank123
    Quote Originally Posted by dcmomentum
    Agreed, I don't see them being banned. I'd be shocked if that happened, personally.
    They'll be banned by 2012 here at Lake Mead. Its a true fact.

    Originally Posted by National Park Service
    Comments related to the phase out of carbureted two-stroke engines:


    12. Some commenters cited the inefficiency of the carbureted two-stroke engines
    NPS Response: We are concerned about pollution in any form, and exhaust gasses
    from two stroke marine engines is no exception. We recognize that a certain amount of
    exhaust smoke and smell is inherent with any two-cycle engine and that the comments
    addressed excessive amounts from PWC. We acknowledge the findings of the
    Environmental Protection Agency’s (EPA) 1991 study that indicate two stroke engines
    lose roughly 25% of the fuel they consume unburned into the water, resulting in high
    levels of hydrocarbon emissions from these engines. The excessive smoke and smell
    from PWC could be attributed to unique operational characteristics of those vessels.
    PWC are often operated with throttle settings that transition from idle to full throttle and
    back to idle, typically in a rapid and repeated sequence. In response to these concerns,
    the rule will phase out the carbureted two-stroke engines over a ten-year period.

    13. There were comments that suggested the 2012 prohibition on carbureted two-stroke
    engines is unnecessary.
    NPS Response: As noted in alternative C in the draft and final EIS, two-stroke PWC
    and outboard vessels would be barred from Lake Mead NRA beginning in 2012 as a
    result of the prohibition on carbureted two-stroke engines. However, even with the
    increasing availability of new technology four-stroke and direct injection two-stroke
    engines, it is estimated by EPA that by 2012, they would only comprise approximately 50
    percent of PWC in use at that time.
    According to the Personal Watercraft Industry Association, PWC models on the
    market today include the new technology reduced-emissions vessels
    (http://www.pwia.org facts_release.htm#qa) and the two top selling models in 2002 were
    four stroke models. The NPS has also learned in discussion with local PWC retailers that
    the majority of new PWC purchases have been four-stroke engines. The industry shows
    this trend, combined with the relatively short operating life of PWC, which range from 5
    to 10 years (depending on the source), would result in only a small number of PWC users
    who would be displaced when the restrictions go into effect. The NPS hopes the industry
    prediction is correct. But if less than 100% of the PWCs in 2012 are the new technology
    reduced emission PWCs, then the PWC restriction will take effect and ensure that the
    resources of the park will be protected.
    Well, it's like how they used allow people to smoke in bars and nightclubs. Now that it's banned just about everywhere, we look back and wonder how the hell we ever allowed it in the first place.

    I predict a similar mindset on 2-strokes in the next 10 years or less. I don't really care how many strokes the piston makes, all I care about is emissions. If a 2-stroke can meet the emmissions standareds, then everyone is happy. If not, then I'm sure that 4-strokes will be comparable in weight to 2-strokes soon, as they are in the dirt bike world.

    Time change, and we need to adapt. Eventually we have to let go of our 2-strokes, and sleep better at night. I know that I was resistant to get rid of my 2-stroke ski, but I've never looked back since going 4-stroke. I even put a 4-stroke on my fishing/hunting boat, b/c the fuel mileage is so awesome.
    Second place is the first loser.

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  6. #26
    I dream skis leon phelps's Avatar
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling


    [/quote]
    Well, it's like how they used allow people to smoke in bars and nightclubs. Now that it's banned just about everywhere, we look back and wonder how the hell we ever allowed it in the first place.

    I predict a similar mindset on 2-strokes in the next 10 years or less. I don't really care how many strokes the piston makes, all I care about is emissions. If a 2-stroke can meet the emmissions standareds, then everyone is happy. If not, then I'm sure that 4-strokes will be comparable in weight to 2-strokes soon, as they are in the dirt bike world.

    Time change, and we need to adapt. Eventually we have to let go of our 2-strokes, and sleep better at night. I know that I was resistant to get rid of my 2-stroke ski, but I've never looked back since going 4-stroke. I even put a 4-stroke on my fishing/hunting boat, b/c the fuel mileage is so awesome.[/quote]

    It is nice to see that someone else here is not afraid to tell others about technological changes that happen for the best. I am sure the motorcycle rides cried the same when they got rid of two strokes. Now that they are gone for road bikes, no one cries.

    Does anyone ever think that maybe you should try to leave the place better than you found it? It is a no brainer that 4 stroke skis are better both from air pollution and water pollution stand points. So there is a small loss in horsepower. Get over it.

    If anyone has an outboard, they will tell you that the four strokes have better fuel economy, less pollution (Air, water, and noise), and are more reliable. Other than the hand jobs who try to make their boat go 100mph, the boating industry loves four strokes. My 115 HP Yamaha burns 4 GPH. My Force 125 burned 13. Same speed. I guess I am missing something.
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  7. #27
    Attention ***** PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home JonnyX2's Avatar
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by dcmomentum
    What's a "global warming nut job"? Someone that has finally accepted that global warming is taking place? People aren't actually still debating that our earth is warming, are they?

    You better not go too far from shore, you'll fall off the edge. The earth is flat, politicians are just trying to trick us into believing that it's round.

    We also never landed on the moon, all of the pictures are doctored and fake. It's just another political conspiracy, duh.
    Its just so funny that 15 years ago they swore we were going into another ice age. They dont REALLY know. Its a guess at best.

    I hear its actually God doing this because we have been such bad people. So everybody start saying prayers!! Jesus is coming back, and man, is he pissed off!
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebird A/C&Heating View Post
    OMG.....Rules for 550 vintage ski class...550 ski riders do not conform to any kind of rules. That is why you are riding a 550 ski in the first place. Rules suck....
    PS...the rule book will be in my 550 pump
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  8. #28
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    I don't think it's bad for PWC's OR 2 Strokes. What Happened when they put restrictions on Car Emissions? They Sucked for a little while and then what We now have engines making more HP per Cubic Inch than ever. The industry will just have to sell us a better product.

  9. #29
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home anthony_'s Avatar
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by WAPWC
    That's why I said "some places in California".
    i wasn't correcting you. i was adding more clarification onto what you were saying.
    Last edited by anthony_; 04-22-2007 at 10:45 AM.

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  10. #30
    PWCToday.com Is My Home Away From Home anthony_'s Avatar
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    Re: EPA Signs Landmark Marine Engine ruling

    Quote Originally Posted by old and slow
    Of course Lake Mead might be dried up by 2012, who knows.
    yeah, i know. it looks weird seeing how much lower the water levels are.

    My evolution: seadoo sitdowns > yamaha sitdowns > blaster > kawi 650 > kawi 550 > squarenose . . . next roundnose
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